Purgatory

You wrote on Jul 6, 2007 at 6:33 AM.
You wrote on May 2, 2007 at 12:13 PM

If you would like a Biblical explanation, I would be happy to give one.

Okay, so as I was talking with you on the other thread...even after we are saved, we still sin. We still have sinful inclinations and desires, as Romans 7 says.

Romans 8 gives a solution to this in putting away the deeds of the body and suffering with Christ. We are to pick up our own crosses, as Jesus said.

When we are first saved, we are washed clean of original sin. The Protestant, Calvinist understanding of our initial salvation is that God declares us just and imputes Christ's righteousness to our account. We are then sanctified, made holy, AFTER this.

In Catholicism, there is no such separation between Justification and Sanctification. If God declares us just based upon nothing, and we are still sinful piles of dung that snow (Christ's righteousness) covers over, than the very nature of salvation is a legal fiction.

So at our initial salvation, God first sanctifies us in Baptism - He makes us holy - by removing original sin and bestowing the Holy Spirit upon us.

THEN, or simultaneously, we are justified - we are declared just in the sight of God, because He has just MADE us that way.

1 Corinthians 6:11, "That is what some of you used to be; but now you have had yourselves washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God."

Notice it doesn't follow Calvin's pattern. We don't see justification, THEN sanctification. We see it listed the other way around.

So this means one of two things - either we can conceptualize us being made holy and then being declared that way after the fact, OR, we can conceptualize the two as occuring at the same time. Fine by me.

However, our sanctification is not yet complete. As I said, we may still have sinful inclinations. And we can fall into unsanctity, into sin, after our initial Justification.

Right after talking about baptism making us die and rise with Christ, Romans 6 says these things:

v. 6 "We know that our old self was crucified with him, SO THAT our sinful body MIGHT be done away with, that we might no longer be in slavery to sin."

v. 12 "Therefore, sin MUST NOT reign over your mortal bodies so that you obey their desires."

v. 14 "For sin is not to have any power over you, since you are not under the law but under grace."

That's not Paul saying sin CANNOT have any power over us. He's giving us an instruction to not LET that happen. Big difference.

v. 16 "Do you not know that if you present yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey, either of sin, which leads to DEATH, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?"

What kind of death is this? A spiritual one. It is presented here as AT LEAST a hypothetical.

v.21 "But what profit did you get then from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death."

What kind of death? Spiritual death. Paul has not indicated that, now that they are saved, it is impossible for them to suffer this consequence. Falling into unsanctity can lead to that.

Romans 6:22, "But now that you have been freed from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit that you have leads to sanctification, and its end is eternal life."

The end of sanctification is eternal life. And the benefit we have - our initial salvation - leads TO that. It isn't over yet. We need to become 100% holy to get into Heaven.

Hebrews 12:14, "Strive for peace with everyone, and for that holiness/sanctification (hagiasmon can be translated as either) without which no one will see the Lord."

Sanctification is not as Calvin thought it. It is much more. It is absolutely necessary and intimately tied to Justification.

Hebrews 12:15-16, "See to it that no one be deprived of the grace of God, that no bitter root spring up and cause trouble, through which many may become defiled, that no one be an immoral or profane person like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal."

We can still become defiled. Spiritual unsanctity is a constant threat.

Hebrews 12:1 tells us that we need to persevere. And how are we to persevere? The point of the Chapter is to tell us to endure the discipline of the Lord.

Hebrews 12:7, "Endure your trials as "discipline"; God treats you as sons. For what "son" is there whom his father does not discipline?"

The sufferings that Paul had been talking about in Romans 8 are a "discipline." They are not a sign of condemnation, but a disciplinary action.

Hebrews 12:10-11, "They disciplined us for a short time as seemed right to them, but he does so for our benefit, in order that we may share his holiness. At the time, all discipline seems a cause not for joy but for pain, yet later it brings the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who are trained by it."

See? We don't share Christ's holiness because of an imputation of it. We share Christ's holiness by being conformed to Him, by repeating the life of Christ in our own life by taking up our crosses and enduring the dicipline of God.

While it may at first seem to be a cause of pain, and sorrow, it TRANSFORMS us. It brings us closer to God, something Paul has been trying to teach us.

Even Peter repeats this idea.

1 Peter 4:1-2, "Therefore, since Christ suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same attitude (for whoever suffers in the flesh has broken with sin), so as not to spend what remains of one's life in the flesh on human desires, but on the will of God."

Suffering brings us away from sin and closer to God, because it makes us holier.

1 Peter 4:19, "As a result, those who suffer in accord with God's will hand their souls over to a faithful creator as they do good."

Now, to wrap this post up - and I will write another one because I want to explain all of this satisfactorally - let me talk about what else suffering is.

It is a punishment.

Yes, Christ suffered to remove the eternal punishment of our sins. Because He died for us, if we remain in Him, we will be saved from the flames.

But temporal punishment remains. Every sin that we do carries certain consequences.

When King David sinned, he repented, and God forgave him. But God still took the life of his child.

Likewise, God increased the intensity of the pain of giving birth, and gave to all of us physical death. Even with salvation, we still (most of us) physically die.

So every sin that we commit has a certain amount of temporal punishment associated with it.

When we suffer the discipline of the Lord - which just so happens to be temporal punishment for sin as well - we are purified by the experience if the Holy Spirit is within our hearts.

We come closer to God by this. The suffering transforms us, sanctifies us. We both DESERVE it, and need it.

The parent puts their child in the corner for a reason. The punishment is both deserved, AND the intent is there to teach the child a lesson. It's supposed to force them to think about what they have done, reflect upon it, and want to, not only because of fear of punishment, but from love, choose to not misbehave and disobey again.

It is an imperfect form of contrition to be sorry for fear of punishment. That's not what God wants. The punishment itself is supposed to drive us toward PERFECT contrition - sorrow for what we have done based upon love. And this will transform us into better Christians.

So basically, that's how the life of the Christian in striving for holiness, and the kingdom, is supposed to work. I find it to be a rather biblical understanding.

You are probably wondering where I am going with all this in terms of Purgatory. Lol. I'm getting there.

- Sean

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Post #9
You wrote on May 2, 2007 at 12:13 PM
Explaining Purgatory Part II

Now I move on to how the Bible talks about our purification, in metaphorical terms.

Revelation 21:27, "but nothing unclean will enter it, nor any (one) who does abominable things or tells lies. Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life."

Nothing unclean. Nothing at all. Not even sinful inclinations and desires can pass through that front gate.

I'll start with the OT. I would encourage you to read all the following examples, as they are crucial to you understanding where I am coming from.

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Psalms 17:3-4, “You have tested my heart, searched it in the night. You have tried me by fire, but find no malice in me. My mouth has not transgressed as humans often do. As your lips have instructed me, I have kept the way of the law.”

Psalm 66:10-12, “You tested us, O God, tried us as silver tried by fire. You led us into a snare; you bound us at the waist as captives. You let captors set foot on our neck; we went through fire and water; then you led us out to freedom.”

Isaiah 1:25, “I will turn my hand against you, and refine your dross in the furnace, removing all your alloy.”

Isaiah 6:5-7, “Then I said, "Woe is me, I am doomed! For I am a man of unclean lips, living among a people of unclean lips; yet my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts!" Then one of the seraphim flew to me, holding an ember which he had taken with tongs from the altar. He touched my mouth with it. "See," he said, "now that this has touched your lips, your wickedness is removed, your sin purged."

Ezekiel 15:6-7, “Therefore, thus says the Lord GOD: Like the wood of the vine among the trees of the forest, which I have destined as fuel for the fire, do I make the inhabitants of Jerusalem. I will set my face against them; they have escaped from the fire, but the fire shall devour them. Thus you shall know that I am the LORD, when I turn my face against them.”

Ezekiel 22:15, “I will disperse you among the nations and scatter you over foreign lands, so that I may purge your uncleanness.”

All this kind of imagery, of being purged of uncleaness through fire, does not apply SOLELY to our initial cleansing, but to our progressive cleansing after that time.

Ezekiel 22:18-22, “Son of man, the house of Israel has become dross for me. All of them are bronze and tin, iron and lead (in the midst of a furnace): dross from silver have they become. Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: Because all of you have become dross, therefore I must gather you together within Jerusalem. Just as silver, bronze, iron, lead, and tin are gathered into a furnace and smelted in the roaring flames, so I will gather you together in my furious wrath, put you in, and smelt you. When I have assembled you, I will blast you with the fire of my anger and smelt you with it. You shall be smelted by it just as silver is smelted in a furnace. Thus you shall know that I, the LORD, have poured out my fury on you.”

Daniel 12:10, “Many shall be refined, purified, and tested, but the wicked shall prove wicked; none of them shall have understanding, but the wise shall have it.”

Proverbs "As silver is tried by fire, and gold in the furnace, so the Lord tries the hearts."

We are tested and tried like gold and silver tested by fire. This testing demonstrates our constitution and it purifies us as well.

Wisdom 3:5-8, “Chastised a little, they shall be greatly blessed, because God tried them and found them worthy of himself. As gold in the furnace, he proved them, and as sacrificial offerings he took them to himself. In the time of their visitation they shall shine, and shall dart about as sparks through stubble; they shall judge nations and rule over peoples, and the LORD shall be their King forever.”

This is not part of the Protestant Old Testament, but I included it because the imagery matches the rest that I have provided.

Zechariah 13:8-9, “In all the land, says the LORD, two thirds of them shall be cut off and perish, and one third shall be left. I will bring the one third through fire, and I will refine them as silver is refined, and I will test them as gold is tested. They shall call upon my name, and I will hear them. I will say, "They are my people," and they shall say, "The LORD is my God."


Malachi 3:1-4, “Lo, I am sending my messenger to prepare the way before me; And suddenly there will come to the temple the LORD whom you seek, And the messenger of the covenant whom you desire. Yes, he is coming, says the LORD of hosts. But who will endure the day of his coming? And who can stand when he appears? For he is like the refiner's fire, or like the fuller's lye. He will sit refining and purifying (silver), and he will purify the sons of Levi, Refining them like gold or like silver that they may offer due sacrifice to the LORD. Then the sacrifice of Judah and Jerusalem will please the LORD, as in days of old, as in years gone by.”

Yes, this applies to our initial salvation. But since sanctification occurs after that point, the imagery can also be applied to the rest of our life.

Now, to the New Testament.

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1 Peter 1:6-9, “In this you rejoice, although now for a little while you may have to suffer through various trials, so that the genuineness of your faith, more precious than gold that is perishable even though tested by fire, may prove to be for praise, glory, and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. Although you have not seen him you love him; even though you do not see him now yet believe in him, you rejoice with an indescribable and glorious joy, as you attain the goal of (your) faith, the salvation of your souls.”

2 Corinthians 7:1, “Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of flesh and spirit, making holiness perfect in the fear of God.”

1 Thessalonians 4:7, “For God did not call us to impurity but to holiness.”

1 Peter 4:12-13, “Beloved, do not be surprised that a trial by fire is occurring among you, as if something strange were happening to you. But rejoice to the extent that you share in the sufferings of Christ, so that when his glory is revealed you may also rejoice exultantly.”

2 Peter 3:10-12, “But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a mighty roar and the elements will be dissolved by fire, and the earth and everything done on it will be found out. Since everything is to be dissolved in this way, what sort of persons ought (you) to be, conducting yourselves in holiness and devotion, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved in flames and the elements melted by fire.”

If you have ever been in debates on Purgatory before, I think you know what passage is coming.

1 Corinthians 3:12-15, “If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one's work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.”

On this passage (and not just this) the Catholic Church makes the claim that there is a final purification that occurs after death - that those who die in the state of grace, although imperfectly purified, are to be purified before entrance into Heaven.

Some Protestants claim that this passage applies solely to Christian leaders. Yet Paul says, "If anyone." He moves from a context of talking about Church leaders building up the foundation of the Church to EVERYONE doing so.

Some Protestants claim this passage talks solely about rewards. What about the suffering of loss, the being saved by fire?

We can build on the foundation with good works - gold, silver, precious stones - or bad works - wood, hay, and straw.

Bad works should be understood to be false works or sins. As Robert Sungenis says, "Scripture never makes a distinction between bad deeds and sins. Each time bad deeds are mentioned they are in the context of sins."

The passage indicates that the Day will reveal the quality of all of the works. There will be, I believe, an "apokalupsis," a revelation.

Ecclesiastes 12:13-14, “The last word, when all is heard: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is man's all; because God will bring to judgment every work, with all its hidden qualities, whether good or bad.”

2 Corinthians 5:10, “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive recompense, according to what he did in the body, whether good or evil.”

Everything is going to be revealed. The quality of all of our works will be exposed.

Rewards will be received for good works, certainly. What about the bad works? What about them?

The text indicates that the bad works will be burned away, they will not stand - and that we will "suffer loss" for them.

Protestants often say this only means the loss of rewards, as if that is all there is to it.

However...is it not true that if you reveal my flaws to me, that can be a purifying experience? A catharsis, if you will?

Those of us who have the love of God within us, but are not perfectly purified, are going to be shown our bad works, our sins, and we are going to feel rather guilty about them.

Yes, we will suffer the loss of rewards. Definitely. And, as I have asked others...won't this loss be PAINFUL?

It is the guilt that accompanies suffering, both on earth and in this post-death state of purification, that will bring us closer to God by making us seek to change our ways, by making us new persons.

As for "suffering loss" - it can also be translated differently.

Looking at the Greek Old Testament:

Proverbs 19:19, “A malicious man shall be severely punished” [zemiothesatai].

Zemiothesatai is the Greek word used for "suffer loss" in 1 Cor. 3:12-15. So suffering the loss of rewards is ALSO a PUNISHMENT.

And that ties into what I have been saying about suffering all along. It not only sanctifies us by bringing about an inward change and purifying us from sinful desires, it is an appropriate PUNISHMENT for the temporal effects of all the sins that we do.

Notice also how the person who suffers loss is not condemned to hell. They are saved THROUGH the fire.

Just as 1 Peter 3:21 talks about being saved THROUGH water, 1 Corinthians 3:15 is telling us that people will be saved by a purifying fire AFTER death.

This does not mean that the people in question were not justified at the end of their earthly life. This post-death purification is NOT a second chance. It is God's mercy. For we must be perfectly sanctified to get into Heaven, and Purgatory is God's way of making sure the job is done.

Notice, for a second, that verses 16-17 say this:

"Do you not know that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy that person; for the temple of God, which you are, is holy."

Now, if you break your parents' window, and say you are sorry, they will forgive you. They are merciful. But if they are JUST, won't they punish you, insofar as, say, making you fix the window?

God is both merciful AND just. When we sin, we damage ourselves, the temples of God. We have been made holy. The construction of the temple is damaged through sin.

We are not our own. We are stewards of our bodies and souls that God gave to us. He doesn't want us damaging the property that He has effectively "leased out" to us.

God will forgive us for damaging the "Temple of the Holy Spirit" that is we. But He WILL be just as well, in expecting us to fix it. So we suffer punishment, a punishment that purifies our souls, repairs the Temple, and brings us closer to God and perfect holiness.

From Paul's own language we find that 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 is talking about purification:

2 Timothy 2:19-22, “Nevertheless, God's solid foundation stands, bearing this inscription, "The Lord knows those who are his"; and, "Let everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord avoid evil." In a large household there are vessels not only of gold and silver but also of wood and clay, some for lofty and others for humble use. If anyone cleanses himself of these things, he will be a vessel for lofty use, dedicated, beneficial to the master of the house, ready for every good work. So turn from youthful desires and pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace, along with those who call on the Lord with purity of heart.”

Look - once again, Paul is talking about a foundation. In a large household - the Church - there are vessels of gold, silver, wood and clay...

The gold and silver are for lofty use, like the good works of 1 Cor. 3.

The wood and clay are for humble use. They are not the most terrible sins imaginable, but a lesser kind - they are the bad works of 1 Cor. 3. They are our sinful desires, inclinations, and the lesser sins that we commit - the venial ones, the undeadly sins of 1 John 5:16-17.

"If anyone cleanses himself of these things, he will be a vessel for lofty use" is Paul's way of saying we should cleanse ourselves of the wood and clay - NOT the gold and silver. For we are being cleansed for lofty use, and so do not need to be cleansed of the vessels of lofty use.

It's all about purification, turning from youthful (spiritually immature, sinful) desires and pursuing purity of heart. For Jesus did say that only the pure of heart would see God.

It is with this understanding that we should approach 1 Corinthians 3:12-15. If we are imperfectly purified, our merciful and just God is going to purify us with "fire."

What is this fire? The fire of His love, of His very being.

Hebrews 12:29, "For our God is a consuming fire."

During our lives, becoming consumed with God's love brings us closer to Him and purifies us. And, if this process is NOT complete by the time of our death, it must still be completed. So from the time of our death, to the judgment, we will be purified by gradually entering into the love of God by passing through the purifying "fire" of His love. It may hurt, but it is worth it.

Romans 8:18, "I consider that the sufferings of this present time are as nothing compared with the glory to be revealed for us."

Even the sufferings of Purgatory.

- Sean