Why 1 Tim. 2:5 is not against Co-mediatorship, Why Hebrews 9:27 is not against Purgatory

You wrote on Jul 10, 2007 at 6:54 PM.
You replied to Courtney's post
about an hour ago
Courtney,I'd also like to respond to your use of 1 Timothy 2:5, and Hebrews 9:27.

Have you ever heard the expression: "A verse without a context becomes a pretext for a prooftext?

You invoke the former verse against priestly absolution, and the latter verse against praying to the saints/purgatory. But do these verses actually support your case?

I'm afraid not.

"The Bible also says in 1st Timothy 2:5, "For there is one God and ONE mediator between God and man, the Christ, Jesus."

Yes, the Bible says this. But what's the context of this verse?

1 Timothy 2:1-8, "First of all, then, I ask that supplications, prayers, petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone, for kings and for all in authority, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all devotion and dignity. This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth. For there is one God. There is also one mediator between God and the human race, Christ Jesus, himself human, who gave himself as ransom for all. This was the testimony at the proper time. For this I was appointed preacher and apostle (I am speaking the truth, I am not lying), teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth. It is my wish, then, that in every place the men should pray, lifting up holy hands, without anger or argument."

Paul's argument here is not, "Jesus is the only mediator, pray only to him, sins can't be forgiven through priests" etc.

Paul's argument is that, BECAUSE Jesus is the one Mediator who gave Himself for us, we shouldn't be partial in who we pray for!

Christ gave Himself as ransom for all. He is our one Mediator insofar as He is the one that instituted the New Covenant. When Hebrews talks about Christ as Mediator, it is talking about His Atonement - which NO Catholic is going to try and minimize. Christ, and only Christ, could suffer and die, could atone, for all our sins, and make it possible for us to be born again.

Paul is thus using the argumen of Jesus as Mediator...to argue for OUR mediation on behalf of others. Praying for other people IS an act of intercession, and, in part, an act of mediation.

You said before: "I never said that God never worked through anyone." Ah, then why did you argue against Confession on the basis of 1 Timothy 2:5, Courtney?

If 1 Timothy 2:5 means that only Christ is a mediator in ALL WAYS, then that means God cannot use mediums (like His spittle to heal) or co-mediators (like Moses to part the Red Sea, or Peter to heal a cripple).

1 Timothy 2:5, taken in the out-of-context way you have used it, argues for much more than you apparently want to argue for, Courtney. It is in no way a prooftext against priestly absolution, against the idea that Jesus can forgive sins THROUGH the priest. Therefore, I suggest you jettison it from your argument against Confession.

"About prayor for the dead. The Bible says in Hebrews 9:27, " It is appointed for men to die once, but after that is judgement."

Don't forget the next verse, Courtney.

Hebrews 9:28, "so also Christ, offered once to take away the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to take away sin but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await him."

Your argument would appear, on the surface, to use Hebrews 9:27 against Purgatory, disproving the efficacy of prayers for the dead. However, taken in context, it doesn't help your argument, but rather, hurts it.

Verse 28 talks about Christ, who was offered once to take away the sins of many. When did He do this?

About 30-33 AD, according to most scholars.

It also talks about Him appearing a second time - the Parousia. When did He do this? Well, I think you and I both agree that He HASN'T returned yet. The Parousia has not happened. 1974 years +, and counting.

So verse 28 is talking about Christ dying once, and then a BIG gap of time, and then the Parousia.

Since the author is comparing verse 27 and 28 together, your apparent thesis - that Hebrews 9:27 describes IMMEDIATE judgment after death - is wrong. By virtue of the analogy, we are dealing with a gap of time in between each event - between our deaths and the judgment, and between Christ's death and the Parousia - which will include the Judgment.

Therefore, Hebrews 9:27 hurts, instead of helps, your argument.

"If a person dies a physical death before they have accepted Jesus Christ's gift of salvation, they are still in spiritual death. And they will be eternally seperated from God as punishment."

Absolutely! Way to agree with Catholic teaching, Courtney. I'm glad that we agree on this. Those in spiritual death, if they do not leave that state, will NOT go to Heaven.

The Catholic argument for Purgatory and prayers for those in that state in no way conflicts with this. I'll explain further down...

"God cannot let sin go unpunished."

That's why Purgatory exists in the first place, Courtney. I TOTALLY agree with you that God won't let sin go unpunished. But is all sin deserving of eternal punishment?

1 John 5:16-17, "If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly."

Deadly sin, and undeadly sin. Some sin is deadly - SPIRITUALLY deadly, putting one in SPIRITUAL DEATH, as you rightly said.

However, some sin is NOT deadly - not SPIRITUALLY deadly.

So, some sin is spiritually deadly and separates us from God. But SOME sin is NOT spiritually deadly, and therefore...will not separate us from God. It may hurt the relationship, but it will not destroy it.

Now, you said that God DOESN'T let sin go unpunished. Most definitely! But what does God do about all those "undeadly" sins?

He "punishes" us for them, "chastizing" us for them. Take a look at Hebrews 12.

Hebrews 12:10-11, "They disciplined us for a short time as seemed right to them, but he does so for our benefit, in order that we may share his holiness. At the time, all discipline seems a cause not for joy but for pain, yet later it brings the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who are trained by it."

Also, look at 1 Peter 4 and Romans 8. What is our earthly suffering? God's chastizement, on the one hand - and HOW WE ARE SANCTIFIED, on the other.

Therefore, the punishment is the cure.

"yes, he wants every person to go to Heaven like you said, BUT the Bible says he is a just God. He cannot sin or cannot look upon sin, so a person who is sinful, who has not been saved, cannot enter the kingdom of God. Period."

Yes!!! I almost totally agree with this. He IS a just God. And He is also an honest God. He won't let us into Heaven if we remain sinful, if we are not 100% sanctified and holy:

Romans 6:22, "But now that you have been freed from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit that you have leads to sanctification, and its end is eternal life."

Hebrews 12:14, "Strive for peace with everyone, and for that holiness (also translated as sanctification) without which no one will see the Lord."

Revelation 21:27, "but nothing unclean will enter it, nor any (one) who does abominable things or tells lies. Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life."

We have to be perfectly holy in order to enter Heaven! So what does God do? He punishes us for our "undeadly" sins, and purges us of our sinful inclinations (indicated in Romans 7) through SUFFERING.

Romans 8:13, "For if you live according to the flesh, you will die, but if by the spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live."

Romans 8:16-17, "The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if only we suffer with him so that we may also be glorified with him."

THIS is the message of the Gospel. We must take up our crosses and conform our lives to the life of Christ.

While God is Just, and will certainly punish us for ALL our sins...
...God is also Merciful, and will help us.

If we are "imperfectly purified" by the time we die...
If we still have any attachments to sin at all...
If we have not been fully punished for our earthly misdeeds...

What then? What about those who are not spiritually dead, but have not FULLY conformed their lives, their souls, to Christ?

Purgatory.

If our earthly suffering can "bear the burdens" of the suffering of others, if our prayers can help them, WHY can't it help those undergoing their Final Purification before entering Heaven?

Take a look at 1 Corinthians 3:12-15. It speaks of the "revelation" of all our works at the Day of Judgment. Some works will be good, but others, not so good.

The bad, false works will be "burned away" and people will get into Heaven, saved by that fire. Why? Because the fire of God's love - the consuming fire found at the end of Hebrews 12 - can purify us from all uncleanliness, and make us worthy to enter into the Heavenly bliss.

Think, for a moment, about Charles Dickens' "A Christmas Carol."

Did the emotional suffering of Scrooge in seeing the misdeed of his past compel him to change? Did it make him regret what he did? Did it make him a new man?

It produced a catharsis - a "purifying" experience - for him. He was a changed man, and was NO LONGER the person he was before.

The same thing for 1 Corinthians 3:12-15. When God has a revelation of all our works, good and bad - an "apokalupsis" of those works - we are going to be EFFECTED by being shown them.

Some of us will not be "burned" - experience emotional suffering because of the love of God inside them - because some of us will already be free of those sinful inclinations, and will already have "atoned" for those faults by becoming holy on earth, and fixing the damage done to the temple of the holy spirit within them.

Others of us...will not be that well off. But shown our faults, having our sinful desires burned out of us by the love of God within us, will transform us. We will experience a purifying catharsis, and be a MILLION times happier than Ebeneezer Scrooge. We will also probably be a little bit better at singing on key. : )

After this... we will get into Heaven. Purgatory is not, I repeat, not, a "second chance." It's not for those who spurned the invitation to the Lamb's Supper in Heaven. It's for those who heeded the invitation, but may have stumbled along the way.

Purgatory is like washing your hands before the great, eternal banquet. Everyone in that state is ALREADY, so to speak, "saved." They just need a little makeover first.

Now that I have established this, I think you should realize that prayers for the dead are not, then, "meaningless." We can help our fellow Christians on earth grow in sanctification and grow closer to the Lord - we can do likewise for our fellow Christians undergoing the Final Purification.

- Sean